Analysing the Cesc whispers and new defenders
IN today’s Mail Martin Samuel teases that maybe, just maybe we would not turn down flatly an outrageous offer for Cesc this summer.
His piece comes following a similar one by Steve Stammers in the Sunday Mirror at the end of last month.
Do I think Cesc Fabregas will leave Arsenal this summer? Well I’d be very surprised. Without writing an essay on it (which one could), it’s one thing letting a 29 year-old Patrick Vieira or Thierry Henry going. A 22 year old Cesc would be another issue. I also don’t buy the argument that statistically we are better without him. I recall four dreadful 0-0 draws (the equivalent of a run of 1 win, 1 draw and 2 defeats) without him. Our creativity returned both thanks to Arshavin settling and Cesc returning.
With him in the team we have certainly looked light in midfield at times. But frankly I’d blame what was around him and not the man himself.
But there is a but.
Martin Samuel is not primarily paid to dig up transfer gossip. He is paid (very, very handsomely one can assume cos it ain’t cheap hiring the chief football correspondent of the Times) to write beautifully crafted pontifications and not to fill transfer column inches. Equally the man from the Sunday Mirror has been covering Arsenal for many years and being first on the Vermaelen story was by no means the first time.
Reading between the lines, my hunch is that the stories come from whispers being divulged by an element on the board.
Finally for today, I hear the hunt for defensive reinforcements has not ended with Vermaelen.
24 June 2009 at 8:24 am
Samuel’s article falls flat early on. He says:
Last week, Fabregas gave Barcelona permission to land, speaking highly of Pep Guardiola, the coach, who he described as his role model. ‘If Guardiola called me, I would be delighted to go,’ Fabregas said.
He didn’t say that. That was the headline in the article which deliberately misconstrued what he said.
And I am always deeply suspicious about articles in the Mail. Anyway, I think this is little more than a well written attempt, during the quietest part of the summer, to justify something that will certainly not happen this year.
24 June 2009 at 8:38 am
Morning,
Have to agree with ‘blogger, here.
More coffee?
24 June 2009 at 8:40 am
A visit from the blogger, we’re in good company today. I have to say I thought the same thing about the Guardiola quotes, they were out of context and should not necissarily be taken at face value, and yet…
I believe you would have to think long and hard about a bid for Cesc. I’m not certain Arsenal haven’t seen the best of him. There’s been a growing petulance about our captain and signs of a deteriorating attitude that I really don’t like. Call it a hunch but I just wonder if he didn’t demand to be played “in the hole” when AA arrived or to take every set piece when he is clearly not the best at this, it’s like the self belief of a young boy is turning into the arrogance of an older man and that can hurt a team.
Don’t get me wrong, I find it fanciful that Arsene would sell Cesc 6 months after making him captain. Add to that the fact I would love nothing more than a fully fit and focussed Cesc Fabregas captaining this Arsenal side and thriving with the form he demonstrated in all seasons previous to the last. You can’t just find another Cesc, sell him and you are selling a world class player. But if we were to get an outrageous fee for him and the money was re-invested on good experienced players it would not be as if the sky was falling in, we could still win the title sooner rather than later if Arsene makes the right decisions. Over to you (again) AW!
24 June 2009 at 8:56 am
I think Cesc will do one more with us and see what we win and where we are going. I would say there is a more than evens chance he will go to Barca next summer. wenger will need to plan for Cesc’s position then. I dont think he will move yet because cesc does not feel he will be automatic first choice from day one, and thats what he wants, and what he gets at Arsenal.
24 June 2009 at 8:58 am
I genuinely believe that Cesc will only leave when he wants to. I don’t think Arsene would accept any sort of offer for him right now after all the time and effort he has invested in the young Spaniard. Ronaldo is different because he was only allowed to leave once he had won every single trophy he could, and Henry and Vieira were past their peak and good money was offered to them and the club in addition to the fact that it was their last chance for a big move.
I still see Cesc spending his 27+ years in Spain and I think he will go earlier than Vieira and Henry but will have spent more time here than either player. As goodplaya and Arseblogger note regularly, Arsene needs to do more to make Cesc as comfortable as possible in our midfield because he is a special talent – one that really doesn’t come along very often and one who has the humility and class to go along with his genius. If any player should be given a top class partner to allow him to flourish, it is Fabregas.
24 June 2009 at 9:25 am
“Finally for today, I hear the hunt for defensive reinforcements has not ended with Vermaelen.”
Care to elaborate?
24 June 2009 at 9:25 am
Steve Stammers used to call Arsenal transfers correctly time after time when he was at the London Evening Standard. Since moving to the Sunday Mirror he has called it wrong a few times. Last summer he had us buying Mario Gomez. Lilian Thuram, Blaise Matuidi and Mouhamadou Dabo. Gomez had a shocker in the Euros; Thuram was a close call but we ended up with Silvestre instead; Matuidi might still come, but is now more commonly linked with the likes of Everton and Portsmouth, whereas Dabo was a rumour that quickly evaporated. I therefore don’t think that Cesc will leave this summer, but probably will next summer after the World Cup – especially if Spain performs well with him at the heart of the side. That said, it is unlike Martin Samuel to fall for a hoax, so nothing should surprise us.
24 June 2009 at 9:41 am
i don’t think cesc will go, not only because i do think he’s a loyal and level headed guy- he’s a winner and all that crap about him being petulant is bollox. but the main reason i think he will stay for the time being is that only one other team in the world could truly, truly tempt and they are probably currently the only team in the whole world who’s first 11 he couldn’t walk into- barca.
Much as we love the guy, this season he has not been as good as either xavi or iniesta and considering they are only 25 as well, it’s not as though barca are currently thinking about replacing them in the long term.
depite the fact that the quotes weren’t true, as blogger said, i do think that if barca did come in with a very good offer for him then he would give it some serious consideration but i don’t see that happening at the moment.
24 June 2009 at 9:49 am
I dont think this transfer will transpire this season. The whole episode largely depends on whether Arsene wants more trophies or is he just concerned about safe finances for the club. I believe both of these are his priorities now. In such a case, i dont see Arsene selling Cesc, simply because he is the most talked about and talented/experienced youngster available for him. His selling will have a massive impact on this young squad and i believe they will not recover out of it soon. Selling a player and him being out because of injury is a lot different.
yes the mastery of a journo is to put pieces together and conceive a piece that might convince some, especially football journo’s during the summers. Martin Samuel with his skills have drafted a piece that might sound convincing to a lot and most of it harped on the feeling that there is serious lack of finance for Arsenal.
So why should Arsene sells Cesc? Yes, he might earn a fortune because the perez gang has helped to bloat up the prices of players quite a lot. But Arsene seems to be a man veyr averse with that kind of opulence be it buying or selling.
24 June 2009 at 10:11 am
Wasn’t Fabregas played in the hole partly to ease him back in after his injury?
24 June 2009 at 10:18 am
I don’t think Fabregas would go anywhere before he’s 25. Xavi Hernandez is 29. He’s the one Barcelona would have to replace sooner. But Fabregas needs to grow in stature. He’s not even sure of a starting place in the Spainish side if Iniesta is fit. He wants to return to Barcelona, but only as a first-choice player, not in Hleb-like fashion. The loyalty (to Wenger for boosting his career) that has kept him at Arsenal would prevent him from going to, say, Real Madrid.
24 June 2009 at 11:25 am
Martin Samuel’s article was bizzarre. I kept waiting to see if he’d gleaned some special insight into relations between Cesc and Wenger, a special window into Wenger’s mind. I waited till the end of the article (I normally skim to pick out primary facts) and instinctively started reading again, sure I had missed something.
We’re all either missing something, or Martin Samuel, faced with a deadline managed to write 600 words on absolutely nothing.
It’s the press bubble. They take their own speclations, report on their speculations, analyse their own speculation and get confused when reality doesn’t seem to match it.
24 June 2009 at 11:28 am
The worst Wenger can do, if you’re in charge of Arsenal, a club that won’t pay over the odss for players, is to sell any of Arsenal’s gems. We absolutely have to keep our top performers because we got them cheaply and we’re priced out of the market, albeit a mad market, right now.
Sell Cesc for say £50M and buy……?
24 June 2009 at 11:51 am
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24 June 2009 at 1:15 pm
Nothing concrete. Just that previous targets are still being tracked.
24 June 2009 at 1:22 pm
Samuel seems to be writing from “whispers” he’s heard from various sources. I don’t dismiss Samuel the way I do other journos, he’s a more serious writer than anyone writing in the Sun, for example. Why he went to the Mirror is beyond me. So I’m not going to trash Samuel, the guy’s been right before on a lot of speculation. He’s also been wrong. All he does in this article is build a case as to why Arsene might seriously consider selling Cesc. If you just read it from that perspective, he actually does a good job in building that case. There’s nothing over the top or far-fetched with his argument, nor is there any reason to react to the article with ridicule or hostility. I agree with goodplaya when he says he doesn’t buy the argument that we did not miss Cesc when he was injured. However, it’s a fair argument to make based on stats, which Samuel provides to back up his article. I don’t agree with his conclusion, that’s all.
What struck me most about the article was this part:
“And what of Fabregas in a 4-4-2? Has Wenger decided, like Rafael Benitez at Liverpool with Steven Gerrard, that playing him in a deeper central role makes his team too fragile through the middle, and could this have been behind the not entirely successful experiment with Fabregas pushed further forward?”
We can argue all day long about Cesc leaving or not, the more important point to me is just exactly what does AW plan for Cesc, given what we saw him do with his position on the team in the last months of the season? Is Cesc now to be a support striker? Why did AW persist with this experiment? What is he trying to do with Cesc? Can Cesc succeed in that position? That’s the point Samuel brings out that supports any speculation about AW’s changing view of Cesc. I think that experiment hurt Cesc’s effectiveness and canceled out his talents. So if AW no longer sees him as our midfield general, and Cesc cannot perform effectively or consistently as a support striker, what does AW do with him?
BTW, Cesc has been playing as a support striker at the Confed Cup in S. Africa. But in that team he’s surrounded by the likes of Xavi, Torres and Busquets.
24 June 2009 at 5:48 pm
Goodplaya,
When you say “defensive reinforcements” do you include a DM or are you talking about outright defenders?
My guess is that Toure will leave and we’ll see another CB come in plus a midfielder.
24 June 2009 at 6:25 pm
Centre backs
24 June 2009 at 7:39 pm
Comparing Gerrard & Cesc re: the ’support striker’ role is frankly ludicrous of Samuel.
Benitez moved Gerrard there to accentuate his strong points (strength,pace,tremendous shooting & crossing ability when running with the ball) & to nullify his weak points. (his inability to control the pace of a game & his lack of patience which means he tries to play the killer ball all the time therefore conceding possession alarmingly often)
Wenger moving Cesc there does the exact opposite; accentuating Cesc’s negatives & nullifying his strengths. A more relevant example would be Scholes who had the worst seasons of his Man Utd career when they bought Veron & moved him further forward.
24 June 2009 at 7:46 pm
“Centre backs”
That makes me very happy!
Any clues as to whether one of Toure and Gallas is leaving? I don’t particularly like Gallas as a person, but I think it’s REALLY important that he stays.
24 June 2009 at 10:11 pm
Sell Cesc for 20 million and Nasri can slot right in, no need to replace.
24 June 2009 at 10:44 pm
No idea re Gallas and Toure but you would have thought at least one might be…
25 June 2009 at 2:15 am
DPK: I really like your comments. Fab4 is better in a deeper creative role than as a support striker. But he has been quite poor defensively and none of his possible partners work as hard as Flamini did. I think Wenger played him there because he had to accommodate him. Early in his career, I read somewhere that PV did not gell with Fab4 bcos he did not like the way their roles were cleanly split. A poor passer himself, he did not like winning balls for Fab4 to take forward.
I believe Wenger is working towards Mascherano /Alonso or Essien / Lampard kind of balanced partnership. The MF that is much more fluid i.e. not relying on one player for creative/vision and another for nullification. We can counter much faster (Brazil?). It depends on the player he is able to get of course. Melo is a complete midfielder of the Barca’s Toure kind. He is big and can do it all. Song nullifies but his passing is sh*t. Denilson’s passing is better but he wins balls by smothering and counters rarely result from his interventions. Diaby wins tackles cleanly but does not always make the best forward decision. He turns and turns and then gets dispossessed. Ebuoe & Walcott are best at taking the ball forward but not quite the way Hleb used to. Hleb could create space with his runs, pass a player one on one, choose who he releases but could not shoot.
At least that has been my observation. We made the best of them with our passing game. All these guys were drilled in that. If I had Melo, I would allow two of those MFs to go, and then partner him with Denilson or an improved Diaby (it will not happen) or some other big & strong player but not Song. We need the physical presence of Chelsea in order to dominate matches.
Arshavin is our best support striker and has all the passing range of Fab4 plus he can shoot. Like Fab4, he is frail but releases the ball faster. AA is much faster on the run. I think he can share that role with RvP or form part of our 3 man strike force.
All I am really saying is that we can do without Fab4. Our team is too small. We need to sell in order to buy. Why not sell the player that would earn us the most revenue and we could replace?
25 June 2009 at 8:23 am
Curious one the Toure/Gallas conundrum. Gallas is nearing the age where his sale value declines and may be disgruntled with life at the Emirates yet was playing inspired football before he got hurt. Toure seems likely to attract good money from a sale but is an Arsenal legend (not that sentiment gets in the way of our decisions) and a few years younger. I’d like them both to stay but admit it probably won’t happen. So who goes? Anyones guess.
Also petulance isn’t murder neither is it a trait alien to most of the great players – a good many were prone to bouts of petulance. Cesc has his moments and if we deny it we truly are wearing red and white tinted specs. I maintain I want Fab4 to stay and succeed, he’s a rare player you just don’t find at every second club. I just have this niggling suspicion his attitude was a little poor at times last year. Nothing would please me more than seeing him revert to his natural midfield position and making this Arsenal machine tick like he did in the 07-08 season when we came so bloody close…
25 June 2009 at 10:04 am
IMO the solution to the beginning of problems in attitude of Cesc and some others- is to bring in some big names. When Cesc was playing with Henry Pires and the like he knew his place in the team. Now he is paired with Song and up and comers and he feels like its his job to do it all and carry them now. Bringing in some big names would balance the chemistry greatly I think. Some older/ experienced vets are needed for that reason. Whether Vieira or David Villa or who ever…
25 June 2009 at 12:56 pm
Goodplaya, heard anything on this?
http://www.tribalfootball.com/arsenal-man-city-linked-premiership-offer-arrives-udineses-zapata-253014
25 June 2009 at 10:12 pm
or Buffon…
26 June 2009 at 10:42 pm
this season fabregas was lazy, greedy and well overpaid as well as being overrated. i say sell the dude he aint that good
27 June 2009 at 7:51 am
tosin, you sir, a moron. “aint that good”? trolling is bad for your heart.
27 June 2009 at 8:46 am
Tosin or Tosser as I prefer, I’ve kept an eye on your banal pathetic comments throughout the season and they are consistently pathetic. You twat.
Excellent points as usual DPK.
27 June 2009 at 10:29 pm
fuck dpk n get a lyf dick. tosin i absolutely agree wid u